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barclaybear
23-07-2009, 04:24 PM
Hi All, Silverworking newbie here. Would appreciate a bit of advice on the following please....

I've made a bangle by twisting together two bits of 2mm wire which I then flattened with a hammer. I've got the two ends as close together as I can and have been trying to solder them - so far unsuccessfully.

I've fluxed (using the autoflux from Cooksons rather than borax) the whole piece (didn't mean to but it runs down when I paint it) and placed a small piece of easy solder over the joint. I've then set to it with my little blow torch (the small one from cooksons - not a big tank with tube etc). After a lot of bubbling and fizzing as the flux gets hot (and quite a lot of the solder jumping off the joint ... grrrrr!), the solder sort of crusts over in position. I then heat and heat until the silver is almost red hot. The solder sort of looks like it's going to go runny but then it sort of changes its mind and just sits there looking square.

After than point it doesn't seem to matter what I do the £$%&ing solder won't do its soldery thing and I'm left gnashing my teeth and continuously having to refill my little blow torch.

Does anyone have any advice as to what I might be doing wrong please?

Any help gratefully received.
Many thanks
Barclaybear

MuranoSilver
23-07-2009, 05:00 PM
When you say "as close together as I can" there should be an almost invisible line. Solder wont fill a gap or "glue stuff" together it gets drawn into a joint by capillary action maybe your gap is to big?

Nic x

Charlotte
23-07-2009, 05:21 PM
I've had a similar problem, there is a lot of metal in a bangle and you need to get the whole thing hot or it just won't go (keep gliding back and forth until you get the heat up, then you can focus on the specific area)... Those little torches don't go as hot as a proper torch, I basically have to shelf my hard solder until I get one. Even medium is a struggle most of the time... and easy is a struggle if there is a lot of metal involved.

I hate to ask a silly question, but are you sure you are using easy solder?;)

Hope this helps... I'm defiantly not the most advanced jeweller on this forum though, so it may be something else!

MuranoSilver
23-07-2009, 06:05 PM
Once you've worked through all the other possibilities it might just be your
torch isn't heating it up enough....
I use the Nimrod PT500 for jobs like that (I've even melted glass with it so it definately gets hot enough!)
Here's a review
http://pmctips.blogspot.com/2009/06/perfect-torch-for-pmc-soldering.html

As an interim measure you could try reflecting some extra heat back off a soldering block.
Prop two charcoal blocks upright on your soldering surface, forming a corner.
(You can place a third block on top like a roof, but that may not be necessary.)
Place your piece to be soldered into the corner section and heat it with your torch.
The blocks will hold and reflect back much of the torch's heat and make soldering easier.

Nic x

julie
23-07-2009, 06:15 PM
i made a bangle a few weeks ago with 3 x 1.5mm silver i wrapped the silver with wire to keep the shape & to keep the gap tight i use hard solder two soldered ok no problem but one wasn't having it so i started again ... cleaned it all up taking the wire off and putting in pickle and started again ..

MuranoSilver
23-07-2009, 06:20 PM
You could try treating the bangle like a HUGE jump ring - push the ends past each other both sides and then pull them back slightly. The tension should keep the edges together ;)

The Bijou Dragon
23-07-2009, 07:09 PM
After having an absolute nightmare of my own today with both hard and easy solder my advice is to use Medium as it seems to work every time for me but neither the easy or the hard would even melt for me the silver would melt but the solder would still be in one piece :confused::mad:

I also find the best method is to put the solder down then put the piece you're soldering on top, add a drop of flux and heat all around until it just 'goes'.

AlexandraBuckle
24-07-2009, 08:58 AM
I am no expert when it comes to soldering by any means, but i soldered some bits together at uni with some success :o

I made sure the joint was very flush - it was almost joined together with the flux (I think of it like when a glass sticks to a coaster)

I didn't cut up bits of solder but manually touched the join with the stick of solder when the metal looked hot enough and it kind of melted and ran into the join.

Dunno if that helps for you, but it worked for me.

barclaybear
24-07-2009, 10:21 AM
Wow - this is GREAT. Thank you to everyone for all your assistance - this is really going to help.

I think the gap may indeed be too big as the wire was too thick to bend so it was really flush (my novice/experimental fault ... won't be trying THAT again!!) so I appreciate that it might not have joined the pieces, but I assumed that whatever the gap, it would melt when it got to a specific temperature. Even if it didn't close up the join I thought it might at least melt the solder onto one of the ends and help close the gap a bit, but it just wouldn't melt at all even after 10 mins of trying to get the piece hot enough. <sigh>

Yes - it's easy solder... still has the little label on the other end as it arrived from Cooksons. They sent med & hard as well (all came in the solder kit) but I haven't had the nerve to try either of those yet ....

It is only a weeny little blow torch and the wire is very thick. I think it would take a very long time to be able to get the whole thing as hot as it sounds like it needs to be. I'll have a go at the charcoal thing though. So far I've been less than impressed with my charcoal block from cooksons since it arrived as the first time I used it it shattered into 3 pieces, but I guess that just makes it easier for me to make this little charcoal hut thing you mentioned Nic.

Haven't tried that upside down thing but am more than happy to give it a go.

Alexandra - was the silver solder you touched your hot work with a little flat strip - about 3mm wide? It sounds more like the funny round wire like stuff you get for use with a soldering iron for making circuit boards. Ah .. if only there was something that user friendly in silver work .... <more sighing>

I think what I'm going to do is chop the ends off, clean the ends up and do some more work on trying to get it so that the two ends are as flush as I can get them and then try again with the solder, with charcoal all around to help me get it as hot as it seems to need to be. Will let you know how it goes.

Thank you again for all your help ... it's great to know I'm not alone.


PS I have more questions, but they're on a different area so will start another thread for those.

MuranoSilver
24-07-2009, 10:50 AM
Glad it helped - When you get your next charcoal block wrap the edges in binding wire to keep it all together ;)
Nic x

AlexandraBuckle
24-07-2009, 05:38 PM
Alexandra - was the silver solder you touched your hot work with a little flat strip - about 3mm wide? It sounds more like the funny round wire like stuff you get for use with a soldering iron for making circuit boards. Ah .. if only there was something that user friendly in silver work .... <more sighing>


Yes definately used flat silver solder, probably 'easy'.

Binraker
01-09-2009, 07:03 PM
I'm no expert but here two tricks I use which are (or were) used in other manufacturing fields like boiler making and tin-plate working.

1. Direct your blowtorch along the work. Think where the wash from the flame is going. That gas is still hot and you can use it to heat up the bits of metal that will be sapping heat from where you are working.

2. Stand your metal off surfaces. I spent ages once trying to solder a mount to a luchenbooth, it was sitting on a soldering block and that was sapping heat away. Now whenever I am soldering large pieces I make sure that they are not fully in contact with the block, air is a great insulator. To do this I tend to use pennies as little feet for the object and have as little contact between then and the piece as possible as they act as heat sinks themselves. Or use a wire wig or suspend the work over a soldering block between two other soldering blocks.

hope that helps.

mizgeorge
01-09-2009, 07:13 PM
Now I've just had to go and look up luchenbooth!

I never knew that :)

Di Sandland
01-09-2009, 08:11 PM
Now I've just had to go and look up luchenbooth!

I never knew that :)

Me too - it'll come in handy for Scrabble!

ps_bond
01-09-2009, 08:55 PM
2. Stand your metal off surfaces. I spent ages once trying to solder a mount to a luchenbooth, it was sitting on a soldering block and that was sapping heat away. Now whenever I am soldering large pieces I make sure that they are not fully in contact with the block, air is a great insulator. To do this I tend to use pennies as little feet for the object and have as little contact between then and the piece as possible as they act as heat sinks themselves. Or use a wire wig or suspend the work over a soldering block between two other soldering blocks.

I use little V shapes of titanium for this sort of thing - it's a godsend for some work. Little thermal mass, not wetted by solder and you can bounce the flame underneath the object you're soldering.

caroleallen
01-09-2009, 09:17 PM
It certainly sounds to me that you have two problems. As you say, chopping off the ends should help but it would be best to use a saw for this so you get nice flat ends. Your torch is also not man enough for the job. If you don't want to get a big torch, you could always use two little torches which what I often do. Good luck with it.

CyberPaddy66
04-09-2009, 05:28 PM
I found that when doing a repair job on a old dragon ring the solder didn't want to melt or flow at all as the ring was sapping the heat away for too quickly for it to even heat the solder up. running the torch flame around and around the ring made the whole piece glow red and just like that the solder melted and flowed into the joint, sometimes you just need to think outside the box your working in ;)

Emerald
04-09-2009, 05:37 PM
Try and hold your bangle with one hand not easy i know, with the two ends together and then saw it, you should get a nice flush edge to solder:)

EmmaRose
04-09-2009, 06:34 PM
I bought a larger plumbers torch and gas canister from B&Q for bigger soldering jobs like that.
Em

mochiandmocha
11-09-2009, 07:42 AM
I'm having a really hard time at the moment with my pentacle project as I am trying to solder the outer ring that wil enclose the star. I think my gap might be too big, but then it won't be long enough if I keep trimming it:(|

I didn't think that you'd have to heat the whole thinkg as long as the joint was red hot... I'll try that.

Anyway, sorry I'm not helping with this post, but I'd like to thank all the members here for their precious advice.^_^

mochiandmocha
11-09-2009, 08:24 AM
Hurray! I had tried at least 5 times between yesterday and today before reading your advice and now, using your tips it just worked (ah! the feeling of gratitude when I saw the solder flowing neatly between the two ends of my wire!:))
Anyway, I will show pics of this pentacle when I'm done (I've still got a lot of soldering to do x_x')

bustagasket
11-09-2009, 08:28 AM
woot glad to hear you have it sussed. Looking forward to seeing the results now :D

Sunnybank
11-09-2009, 10:30 AM
|I'm only one up from you on the newbie stakes!

Realistically though the small torch probably isn't up to the job, as 2mm wire, twisted is quite heavy to get hot enough. I've accepted the limitations of my torch and either make open cuff bangles or save them for my evening class.

Be warned that with the amount of heat you are putting on this bangle that you are likely to have fire stain and it will be difficult to polish the bangle to a high shine as you won't be able to file off the copper, because of the twists, that has been brought to the surface by the heat. I've got the T shirt :(|:(|for fire stain!!!! A satin finish with a brass brush makes the fire stain less obvious. The experts might have more info on removing fire stain.

OMG I've just made a technical post!!!!

Sunnybank
11-09-2009, 10:50 AM
|I'm only one up from you on the newbie stakes!

Realistically though the small torch probably isn't up to the job, as 2mm wire, twisted is quite heavy to get hot enough. I've accepted the limitations of my torch and either make open cuff bangles or save them for my evening class.

Be warned that with the amount of heat you are putting on this bangle that you are likely to have fire stain and it will be difficult to polish the bangle to a high shine as you won't be able to file off the copper, because of the twists, that has been brought to the surface by the heat. I've got the T shirt :(|:(|for fire stain!!!! A satin finish with a brass brush makes the fire stain less obvious. The experts might have more info on removing fire stain.

OMG I've just made a technical post!!!!

What a drongo! :"> That's what comes of having a sneaky peak at work and not reading the thread properly!
I might start a new thread on fire stain though!