Pickled to death

[caroleallen]

Help please! I accidentally left a load of chains in the pickle pot and now they're all black. I tumbled them all night in the hope that they would clean up but they're still black. I've now reheated them with the torch and they're back in the pickle. It was interesting when I heated them that the flame was a very pretty bright green. Will they go back to normal or will I have to clean them all individually with a brush? I'm hoping I won't have to do that as I'm running very short of time now.

[Di Sandland]

I have done similar, Carole, and I'm afraid it might be a brush job. The bright green must be the copper eh?

[caroleallen]

Well, they came out of the pickle slightly less black - more dirty grey really. I had another go at heating them - more pretty green flames (I think you're right about the copper Di). They now look reasonably white and are in the tumbler again. Fingers crossed that they'll be OK! I'll let you know.

How I wish I'd paid attention in those chemistry lessons. At the time I never thought it would ever be relevant to me!

[Boo]

I was just going to say the same, the flame turns bright green with copper. The thin layer of copper on the surface, after pickling, would usually be pink.

Were they solid Sterling - I had some silver plated chain that I was experimenting with to destruction and that went black in pickle?

[Di Sandland]

How I wish I'd paid attention in those chemistry lessons. At the time I never thought it would ever be relevant to me!

I can actually remember saying as much to our chemistry teacher. I went to an all girls grammar and he was the only male on the premises, apart from the groundsman (another story ;)).

Mr Brown, the chem teacher, yelled at me one day when I wasn't paying attention and I actually asked him what use his lessons would be to me when I was buying the Sunday joint of meat.

It was the 1960's and liberation hadn't hit Dunstable yet ;)

[Solunar Silver Studio]

...just wondering Carole....have you changed the pickle for a fresh batch this morning? There must be a fair amount of copper floating around in there if it can achieve that result overnight.....=:-O

[caroleallen]

There are signs that the patients may be reviving. News of their death may have been exaggerated. They're not sparkly yet, but I think if I give them a bit more tlc they may be nursed back to good health.

[caroleallen]

Yes, you're right about changing the pickle - good point.

[bustagasket]

I had a similar problem with the sections of chain in my onyx and mirror ball set, what seems like a life time ago, and i didnt know about reheating it then and i desperately tried polishing it. It came up a reasonable colour until you put it against the other pieces, and then you can see it is darker. It is at the clasp and so would thankfully be hidden under the hair line but it still bothers me greatly cos i know its there.

My inexperienced showing greatly i gather. Hope yours respond to their CPR hun :D

[Boo]

If my pickle has enough copper in it to actually plate silver, it is visibly that copper sulphate blue - I suppose in an opaque pickle vessel you might not notice it, but in a clear glass bowl it's very obvious.

I always use new pickle when I'm about to start working on silver and keep the older stuff for copper.

[WitchfordSilver]

How long did you leave them in the pickle? I often leave things in for a few days with no ill effects. I never put anything other than silver in the pickle.


May be someone can explain what the black coating is.

Neil

[caroleallen]

They were in there for a couple of days. Stupid of me I know but I had students in and I was so busy sorting out their stuff, I forgot about mine. I think the pickle was quite old and that's why it happened.

[Solunar Silver Studio]

We really could do with a proper chemist to look at this and give a considered answer. I've been having a scout around and there is no definitive answer that I can see. I found out a lot about copper...and it's electron shells...and why it is pink in it's natural state. I've found that cupric and cuprous oxide are different - one is black and one is red - so that might be involved somehow. I've also found out some good info on pickle and environmentally friendly alternatives which I'll put on here for anyone that is interested. but I've found nothing to answer your question as to why this happens. All I can say is that you are not alone....there are quite a few 'Why did my silver go black in pickle' questions floating around the net....

i dream i can fly: organic jewelry pickle (http://idreamicanflyaway.blogspot.com/2009/01/to-pickle-or-not-to-pickle.html)
Bario-Neal - Research Blog » 2009 » July (http://bario-neal.com/bn/blog/?m=200907)
Citric Pickle (http://www.thebeadman.com/pickle.html)

[caroleallen]

Very good articles Bee. One question, is baking soda the same as bicarb?

[Solunar Silver Studio]

Sure is! Sodium bicarbonate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bicarbonate)

[EmmaRose]

Its happened to my stuff too, and I don't ever have copper in there, must be residue from silver alloy or something.....
E

[Solunar Silver Studio]

There is 7.5% copper in sterling silver and Argentium silver

[lorraineflee]

I can actually remember saying as much to our chemistry teacher. I went to an all girls grammar and he was the only male on the premises, apart from the groundsman (another story ;)).

Mr Brown, the chem teacher, yelled at me one day when I wasn't paying attention and I actually asked him what use his lessons would be to me when I was buying the Sunday joint of meat.

It was the 1960's and liberation hadn't hit Dunstable yet ;)
Did you go to school in Dunstable or was it Luton High School for Girls - seem to remember we only had one male teacher during the late 50's early 60's there too.

[Di Sandland]

Queen Eleanors School For Girls, Dunstable. Colloquially known as Quellies.

[Boo]

There is 7.5% copper in sterling silver and Argentium silver
Indeed and it's this that causes the firescale that you need to pickle for in the first place. So even working exclusively with silver will deposit copper in the pickle. It just happens appreciably faster with copper pieces.

[glen]

hi
if yr getting green flames when you reheat you may still have pickle solution on the metal (even if it is dry) it is always a good idea to rinse / ultrasonic something that has been in pickle or acid especially hollow stuff, even leaving it in the soda for a long time may not help as warm pickle gets in everywhere. I have often soldered something hollow thats been in acid and the whole thing explodes and covers me in acid. fun fun fun great for the nerves and eyesight.
:0to+:

[caroleallen]

The chain wasn't hollow and it had been tumbled in soap all night, so I don't think there was any pickle left on it. I think it must have been the copper oxide burning off, though I've never noticed those bright green flames when soldering copper.

[Boo]

I get that flash of bright green when I'm melting copper, that's how I know I'm in the right part of the flame for it to melt.

I've been doing some commissions and probably melted about 300 'copper raindrops' this week.

[Lindyloo]

What does a copper raindrop look like?

[Boo]

It's a design I sell quite a lot of - I've made 4 necklaces with various matching earrings this week - I'll just post a link to one of the photos - hopefully this will work, rather than embedding it:

http://www.etsy.com/get_convo_image.php?convo_id=18959793&image_id=7604903&image_type=full

[Solunar Silver Studio]

This is an interesting little article that I have just picked up from the Lapidary Journal Jewelry Artist Flashcard October 27 2009 which might answer some intriguing questions...

[A consultation with my good friend (and Lapidary Journal Jewelry Artist November cover artist) Lexi Erickson revealed that she had done some independent research on the topic, because her classroom pickle was causing random acts of copper plating for no apparent reason. As we do a lot in this craft, she consulted with her mentors and found that an old pickle pot will eventually precipitate iron into the solution because the ceramic glaze used to make a crock pot has a high iron content. If you notice a lot of copper plating on your pieces, and you haven’t accidently dropped steel in your pickle pot, you might want to replace your ceramic liner if it’s old. Small cracks, pits, or crazing in the glaze will allow the iron to leach out into the pickle, and that will cause copper plating where you may not want it.]

I think it is a worthwhile 'newsletter' to sign up to.... If you are interested there is a sign up link on the Lapidary Journal Jewelry Artist Magazine website....right hand column... Lapidary Journal Jewelry Artist Magazine - Jewelry Making, Jewelry Arts, Gems, Beads, Minerals and More! (http://www.jewelryartistmagazine.com/)

[AlexandraBuckle]

Hmmm, that link didn't work for me... :(

[Solunar Silver Studio]

Which one - Boo's or mine?? I got a sad smilie with Boo's ...not sure that was what was meant!

[AlexandraBuckle]

Which one - Boo's or mine?? I got a sad smilie with Boo's ...not sure that was what was meant!

Oops sorry! Yes I meant Boo's - just got a sad face.

[Boo]

Sorry ladies - I did wonder if it would show, as it was a photo I uploaded in a private convo on Etsy - it obviously showed okay for me as I was logged in, but mustn't work for others.

I stuck a couple of quick photos on Flickr instead: necklace9557f on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/boojewels/4058277558/) and the next one shows the matching earrings.

[AlexandraBuckle]

Sorry ladies - I did wonder if it would show, as it was a photo I uploaded in a private convo on Etsy - it obviously showed okay for me as I was logged in, but mustn't work for others.

I stuck a couple of quick photos on Flickr instead: necklace9557f on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/boojewels/4058277558/) and the next one shows the matching earrings.

Yay, thanks Boo, they are lovely designs :)

[Pandanimal]

That is so scary boo! I was lying in bed last night and that set is almost exactly what I was imagining. All sorts of other designs in my head too as I was anticipating my first jewellers torch arriving. I was trying to think of things I could do with wire that I hadn't seen any one else do. We must have very similar thought processes.
It works well doesn't it! But back to the drawing board for me! lol

[mizgeorge]

Julia, don't worry about doing something similar - it's a design that's been around for a long time - I make something very similar in silver (and more often as a bracelet), and so do masses of other makers. Making balled ends on wire is a great way of getting a feel for how metal behaves with heat. It's also a pretty fundamental technique for making many other things, like headpins and rivets.

[Boo]

And there was me thinking I was pretty original. :Y: But I'm in my place now thanks.


I realise that very little is truly original - but I know what my thought process was with that design and it wasn't one where I picked up any inspiration from anything other than the drips from an overflowing gutter. Hence the name.

[Ominicci]

Ha ha Barbara beat me to it - I was just about to post the info about the ceramic pickle pot from the Lapidary Journal Jewelry Artist Flashcard October 27 2009. So that any of you using a ceramic pot /slowcooker/ crockpot set up would be aware of it!

[Boo]

Someone had mentioned in another post about an Asda £7.99 slow cooker/pickle pot - and I had some time to kill near an Asda yesterday after I just missed a bus, but they didn't have one.

[Solunar Silver Studio]

Looks like you might have missed the boat as well as the bus, Boo! Asda Slow Cooker £7 - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1942893)

[Boo]

Ah, never mind. I don't really need it, but I certainly couldn't have afforded it last month. I just decided that the inside of Asda was nicer for killing time than the derelict area around the bus stop - plus they have nice loos.

They had toasters and kettles etc. at those low prices though, had a good mooch.

[Solunar Silver Studio]

Well - you could still be in luck...have a look at this...and it would save you a pee too....:rofl::-D:rofl::-D

Buy Cookworks Round 3.5 Litre Slow Cooker. at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for . (http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?go.x=4&jspStoreDir=argos&catalogId=651&referredURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.argos.co.uk%2Fwebapp% 2Fwcs%2Fstores%2Fservlet%2FSearch%3FstoreId%3D1000 1&cmpid=COJUN&langId=-1&searchTerms=420%2F7490&referrer=COJUN&storeId=10001&go.y=11)

[Boo]

Thanks. That might actually be a good idea for a Mother-in-law sized Christmas present. I always have to find her something where I can tell her the exact model number and price so that she doesn't have to think for herself.

[caroleallen]

I got my new one from Argos and it's great. I'm afraid it is new though, so that can't be the reason for the problem.

[Polly]

I was lucky enough to get a slow cooker from Asda for £7 the other week. Unfortunately, my husband now thinks he's now going to get lovely warming stews this winter, (haven't had the heart to tell him... bless!).:dance:

[Boo]

Carole, is yours the one linked to earlier:
Buy Cookworks Round 3.5 Litre Slow Cooker. at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for . (http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?go.x=4&jspStoreDir=argos&catalogId=651&referredURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.argos.co.uk%2Fwebapp% 2Fwcs%2Fstores%2Fservlet%2FSearch%3FstoreId%3D1000 1&cmpid=COJUN&langId=-1&searchTerms=420%2F7490&referrer=COJUN&storeId=10001&go.y=11)

What sort of outer physical size is it - it says it's 3.5 litres capacity and 8 cup capacity - which doesn't make sense to me - I can't picture how big it is. My husband is off somewhere near Argos later and offered to pick it up for me - but I have very little space to locate it, so wondered what the outer size is? 3.5 litre capacity sounds quite big to me - considering that I only use a cup full of pickle at a time.

[mizgeorge]

Boo, if it's any help, I use a 1.5 litre slow cooker for my pickle, and I barely cover the bottom inch with liquid - I use about a cup at a time too.

[Ominicci]

I only use 250ml of pickle in my mini pyrex dish on top of a tealight plate warmer too. That is a small cupful and lasts for a couple of months (unless I use the wrong tongs lol). 3.5L is a medium sized slow cooker and does meals for 4 people.

[Boo]

Thanks.

It's irrelevant now - we'd decided to get one for food anyway, we've been talking about it for a while and I'm having to seriously modify my diet now as I've come off my diabetes medication (thought chunky veggie soups might be good for my lunches) - but they're out of stock within about 50 miles of me anyway. I'll look at it again in a week or two.

I shall continue with my tealight warmer for pickle. I found a little chocolate fondue set I had kept aside for a raffle prize or something and that is smaller than the plate warmer I use, so I might try that instead - I'm just trying to reduce my footprint on surfaces.

[Solunar Silver Studio]

Well, although a lot has changed since I took this (I now have a turntable with my brick on) but the tea-light powered chocolate fondu set with a mini lidded ceramic casserole dish inserted is still going strong!!http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss23/solunarsilverstudio/spots7.jpg

I don't know if you have 'Poundland' around your way Boo, but the casserole dish came from there...and I also use massive tea-lights (about 5cm across) from there too at 6 for a pound. They don't need replacing so often!