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View Full Version : I'm not in love...but I am excited!!



Solunar Silver Studio
24-10-2009, 02:49 PM
I have spent some time today having a serious play with Argentium. They say it is the way forward and a revolution and all that so you have to give it a go don't you...

Well as soon as Carole said that it fuses really well I started to get quite excited and today I have been making jumprings of various sizes and practicing fusing them. I only have borax for a flux but it seems to be quite happy to fuse using that. I have to unlearn an awful lot first. I have been fusing fine silver rings to make chains for so long now that I could probably do it in my sleep but it is all just a bit different with Argentium. It seems to take a little longer to get up to fusing temperature - I suppose I ought to check what temperature it fuses at as I suppose it will be higher than fine silver and therefore would take longer!!#-o Derr! And it is a bit less reactive when it gets to fusing temperature. With fine silver you almost have to time it to the instant or you melt the ring - Argentium seems to be a little more laid back...it's almost like slow motion fusing compared to fine silver! But that is good...less 'accidents'!!:-"

I have tried to replicate one of my fine silver chain designs in Argentium - but I am only using 0.7 Argentium instead of 0.9 fine silver - so it looks a bit thin and wimpy by comparison (I shall probably have to drop to smaller mandrels) but it is working out OK! It is considerably tougher to wind the wire - even when it has been annealed - so getting guaranteed consistent size rings could be more challenging. Likewise, it is harder to shape and twist the rings once they are fused but that is no real problem either.

I have also been playing around with that bit of Argentium weave I did on Thursday (using 0.5 wire) and have made 3 rings...and learned a lot. I am getting to grips with soldering again. It has been a long time but it seems to be a lot easier than I ever remember it being with sterling. I am using medium Argentium solder and the borax...and so far it is a case of a couple of seconds to heat up and 'ping' - it's gone! So I'm quite happy with that too!

So - what is the problem??

I'm just not in love!! Fine silver is just so beautiful. It looks gorgeous when it is fusing and it still looks gorgeous when it is quenched. Even if it does turn a little white - it is still beautiful - like a covering of frost!!

Argentium is clever - and my head likes that! I can see all sorts of things that I can do with it now - and that excites me! But it doesn't delight me in the way fine silver does. It seems to be more of a job - going through the processes handling dull, grey/black metal, endlessly waiting for the darn things to pickle clean!!:'( When I had work to do with fine silver I used to find myself grinning foolishly with the delight of it all...I just can't see myself doing that with the Argentium...although the finished effect will probably be a lot more stunning.

Is it a good trade off?

I'm totally sure that Argentium is staying in my repertoir now - although it will take ages to learn how to handle it well. I'm just not sure how the work/pleasure balance is going to work out!!

I will post some pictures later on...or possibly tomorrow. I want to make use of the daylight that is left playing in the 'studio'! I just thought I would add a thread to the dwindling number this afternoon!! ;)

bustagasket
24-10-2009, 03:57 PM
Aww perhaps when you are more comfortable in its handling you will find that you will fall in love without realising it? I am sure it will all turn out good :)

Solunar Silver Studio
24-10-2009, 05:13 PM
Yeh, maybe Su'...It just reminds me of making jewellery with paperclips!!

Anyway - here is my days production...lousy photos as usual but none of it has been finished of with a tumble or a polish as yet. I need to find out if I can tumble in the same shot as I use with fine silver. The Argentium blurb says that you should use dedicated tools for Argentium to avoid contamination...but I don't really understand the reasoning behind that one yet. More research needed!! I've not done a catch of any kind with the bracelet. I might just try an S shaped one to test out the Argentium's strength when it has been heat hardened. Lots to learn - lots of experimenting to do!

489

490

The first 2 rings I did didn't work very well as the sawing to size dislodged a couple of the wires and made the soldering a bit of a trial. I finally sussed out a technique for the third one which I am fairly proud of! You can hardly see the join with magnifiers on - but you can see the line across the top with this super enormous photo!! Not bad though!!

491

I am totally amazed with the strength of these rings though...considering it is only 0.5 wire! And they haven't been heat hardened yet!

bustagasket
24-10-2009, 05:19 PM
I think it all looks fantastic hun, and i am sure you will soon be flying with it and loving every minute :D

caroleallen
24-10-2009, 05:27 PM
Well done Barbara, they're looking good. I don't know whether I mentioned that you don't need to heat the whole piece like you do with sterling to get it to fuse or solder. Just play the flame on the join. Like you, I quite like Argentium but it will take a bit more getting used to. I have to try to remember not to move it until it's cooled a little as it's fragile. Another tip is not to use locking tweezers on it while heating it as they will cause it to buckle.

Petal
24-10-2009, 05:31 PM
OOOh Bee, your work is lovely and even though I have never done anything like that, its interesting to read what you have learnt from the process and how it compares to your other ways of working with metals. I've been avidly reading my beginners jewellery book by Jinks McGrath for the last few days to help me, before I go on my first course in a couple of weeks time and I can't wait ;) Lets hope Cookies has a freepost coming up in about 2 1/2 weeks time, just in time for my next large order :Y:

xxx

BTW, I saw Robert Plant today, while we were out and about :Y: (Shame I couldn't have whipped out my Raising Sand CD and asked him to sign it before he whizzed off in his car #-o)... )

Di Sandland
24-10-2009, 06:46 PM
BTW, I saw Robert Plant today, while we were out and about :Y: (Shame I couldn't have whipped out my Raising Sand CD and asked him to sign it before he whizzed off in his car #-o)... )

You should have asked him if he wanted a titanium and diamond pick, cos a friend of yours has one with his name on it!

In my mispent youth I used to have rude dreams about Robert Plant ;) and I love the sound of him with the Krauss woman.

Di Sandland
24-10-2009, 06:47 PM
Bee - as usual your work is beautifully delicate and detailed. Your comment about paper clips makes me wonder if its more the gauge you find disappointing rather than the metal?

Solunar Silver Studio
24-10-2009, 07:07 PM
Nope - I've been working with all gauges from 0.5 to 1.0...and I have some D wire and some 3mm bangle wire to have a play with too. It is the dull colour that you work with. I know that it does polish up beautifully because I do use it for earwires and I make a sort of necklace connector thingy that doubles up as a focal bead hanging device as well which looks lovely after it is hardened and then tumbled...it's just not 'a delight' to work with...which even after 2 years of working with fine silver I still feel every time I make anything....even fusing a batch of 100 6mm jumprings. It's really depressing that everything I am working with is suddenly dull grey.

Di Sandland
24-10-2009, 07:10 PM
I think I do understand. I used some fine silver for some headpins the other day and it is different to work with.

I love working with sterling silver too though - that flowing of clouds across the surface thing as it melts is magical.

Petal
24-10-2009, 08:51 PM
You should have asked him if he wanted a titanium and diamond pick, cos a friend of yours has one with his name on it!

In my mispent youth I used to have rude dreams about Robert Plant ;) and I love the sound of him with the Krauss woman.

I was thinking of mentioning it, but I am not quite sure what Geti is up to with this titanium and diamond pick... is it for him and if it is, why hasn't he sent it to him?? He did look in a bit of a hurry tho. and he whizzed by so quickly, that I didn't have a chance! Yeah, Alison Krauss and RP do sound SO lovely together, don't they. We've been fans of AK for years now and would love to go and see her in concert. He's pretty good too ;) but I prefer the stuff with AK.

xx

lesley
25-10-2009, 12:17 PM
It's fascinating reading about your experiences, Barbara - thanks for sharing.

Your enthusiasm for fine silver is so palpable it gives me a little lift inside. Thanks even more for that. []

Solunar Silver Studio
25-10-2009, 12:28 PM
Crumbs!:"> I didn't know I had such power!:-O

But that is just it you see...if I can give you a long distance lift...think how light my step is as I open up my 'studio' in the mornings when I've got some fine silver work to do!!

I have a fairly large stock of fine silver jewellery completed now - enough to make a decent display at a few house parties anyway - and apart from a couple of commissions to finish for next weekend I haven't got much on my 'to do' list, so I might devote myself entirely to Argentium next week and see if I can fire the PASSION!!!!:-D

lesley
25-10-2009, 01:09 PM
I know you have to work at relationships but this should be the honeymoon period (or maybe the wedding night?) so perhaps you and A will never have that fire. You can still be friends though. :)

Jayne
25-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Beautiful chains Barbara,
Really elegant and classic :)
Thanks for the tips as well,
J x

MuranoSilver
25-10-2009, 04:33 PM
Love those plait rings and wonderful to read somone elses experiences with Argentium.
Nic x

CDW Designs
26-10-2009, 03:47 PM
Yeh, maybe Su'...It just reminds me of making jewellery with paperclips!!

Anyway - here is my days production...lousy photos as usual but none of it has been finished of with a tumble or a polish as yet. I need to find out if I can tumble in the same shot as I use with fine silver. The Argentium blurb says that you should use dedicated tools for Argentium to avoid contamination...but I don't really understand the reasoning behind that one yet. More research needed!! I've not done a catch of any kind with the bracelet. I might just try an S shaped one to test out the Argentium's strength when it has been heat hardened. Lots to learn - lots of experimenting to do!

489

490


The first 2 rings I did didn't work very well as the sawing to size dislodged a couple of the wires and made the soldering a bit of a trial. I finally sussed out a technique for the third one which I am fairly proud of! You can hardly see the join with magnifiers on - but you can see the line across the top with this super enormous photo!! Not bad though!!

491

I am totally amazed with the strength of these rings though...considering it is only 0.5 wire! And they haven't been heat hardened yet!


Love the rings, I think they look great! I'd have one of those rings for sure.
:))) The necklace looks very effective too.

Solunar Silver Studio
27-10-2009, 09:51 AM
Thanks for your encouragement everybody! I worked on my commissions yesterday and am devoting today to Argentium - with just a smattering of pmc if I find the time!

It really is the weirdest stuff!

I still haven't really got to grips with annealing yet. Or I don't think I have. I have tried the permanent marker trick...but I wonder if it only really applies to Sharpie...cos my cheap imitation vanishes before any changes of colour or springiness. My best efforts have been achieved by getting it to a very dull red with a fairly slow flame and keeping it there for a few seconds. I give it a few seconds to cool a bit before quenching it...perhaps I shouldn't quench it?...might need air cooling. Anyway...it is certainly softer but it is still too resistant to get a really tight wind on a mandrel. I have only ever made my own jumprings out of fine silver so I don't know how easy it is to wind annealed sterling silver. Can you get a really tight wind?? I am now working on trying to assess the state of annealment (is that a word??) by watching the wilt of my springy winds off the mandrel and trying to match the colour of the best wilter!!:rofl:

Anyway. Logic dictates that after annealing and winding and cutting you need to pop the grey/black rings into the pickle before going on to fuse them. But with all my faffing around with annealing I began to notice that the more it was heated the more the greyness vanished - in places anyway. And experimenting with balling up a bit of black wire and fusing a bit of black wire to a ball of AS showed that is happily performed with out any flux or any other encouragement. So I thought I would ditch the pickling stage and see what happens trying to fuse grey/black AS rings without flux. Definitely a counterintuitive move!!

498

I am doing hoooooge rings by the way 1.4ID and 0.7 wire. The four on the left of the top picture had already been fused before I thought it would make a good piccie. But you can see the original colour of the rings by comparing the four on the right top picture. Carole is right!...you don't have to heat the whole ring...just the join...soooooo much quicker :Y:

I have found that the fusing seems to work better if the join area is not actually on the block. (This is a brand new block from Cooksons - only used for the first time on Saturday and only for Argentium - but it goes black as soon as a flame is played on it and smells like burning wood!!!:-O Do they all do this?? I am wondering if the burning off fumes are affecting the forming of the germanium on the surface of the AS?) Anyway - I have positioned the rings so they just overlap the edge of the block...and you can see how much slump you get with Argentium and this is just heating one tiny area of the ring!! So if anyone has plans for anything big remember it needs real support!!!

So - the fusing worked in seconds - no flux - dirty looking rings!!! And you can see how bright the fused area is!! All the rings in the bottom photo have been fused.

It's weird I'm telling you!! WEIRD!!!

Solunar Silver Studio
27-10-2009, 12:36 PM
Just been reading this article over lunch. It is probably the most comprehensive article on Argentium I have found so far and it has answered a lot of the questions I was asking myself this morning. Anyone interested in working with AS in the future might find it useful:Y:

[Ganoksin] Road Testing Argentium Sterling (http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/argentium-testing.htm)

Di Sandland
27-10-2009, 01:08 PM
That's a good one, eh? Duly bookmarked and thank you :Y:

Solunar Silver Studio
27-10-2009, 01:31 PM
My first batch of Argentium silver/pmc hybrids has just entered the kiln.....only speak in hushed tones now folks...we don't want any shockwaves over here for the next half hour or so!
:-O (That's an image of me peering through the peephole earlier!!! :D

Lindyloo
27-10-2009, 01:50 PM
Waiting with baited breath Barb.

Solunar Silver Studio
27-10-2009, 02:56 PM
Veeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry In-ter-est-ing!!!!

I forgot to take a photo of them before I put them in the kiln...

500

It's a bit scary to see the blackness of the Argentium against the beautiful silvery white of the pmc...:'(

I thought all was well when I first took them out...except for the black!!! ....but....well You can't really see it very well - but the holly leaves at the back I had attached lengthways along the bow shaped AS links. Of course, I know - as do many of you - that pmc3 shrinks about 10% when it is fired. I also know - as do many of you - that AS is very fragile and brittle when it is red hot. What I didn't do is put the two facts together before putting the holly leaves into the kiln. Therefore - as the pmc has shrunk, it has tried to bend the AS link up...and the metal didn't like it![-X

501

The other leaf was not attached over quite such a long area and seems to have survived...as do all the smaller stars and 'Helibores' which are only attached at one point...and therefore haven't bent the wire at all.

502

Sorry the photos are so naf...

Right... my next proposed task comes with another set of problems... I want to try to enamel the 'hellebores' and stars. If I pickle these links now it will clean up the AS but the pmc will absorb some of the pickle and I don't know how that will affect enamelling it. Should I just ignore the black AS (even though it seems to be shedding little flecks of black everywhere [see second picture])and enamel the pmc and then pickle as a final activity? Or am I safe to pickle the pmc before enamelling....?

I would appreciate any answers....but I'm not sure I have the patience to wait for them!! Haahahahaha!!

I am really enjoying myself here...I love all this "what if..." and "I wonder if I can..." The only thing that is a bit upsetting is the cost when it goes wrong!!:'(

Solunar Silver Studio
27-10-2009, 04:45 PM
:dancing:Whhhoooooooppppp....whhhhhoooppppp!!!! :dancing:

503

Straight out of the kiln!!! I am really really pleased...so far!! I can't see anything wrong with them....I have had a gentle wiggle...and nothing dropped off...which is always a good sign!!!

I did have a moment of major panic - when I realised that I would have to take the whole thing out of the kiln when the enamel had finished firing because you can't leave enamelling in to cool down with the kiln or it would overcook...and I could envisage all of the AS shattering as I moved it...but I did it!!! All that training with Kerplunk over my childhood years paid of at last!!:D

I'm really pleased with the enamel. The turquoise is stunning...the royal blue is a bit thick so you don't quite get the full transparent effect but it is a lovely colour. The emerald is gorgeous and the amber on the hellebores is a bit mucky but acceptable!! I wanted to keep a border of silver all round everything to give a sort of frost/ice effect....they are supposed to be for Christmas after all!! They are designed as bracelet links - but these will obviously end up as earring components.

Now I know it is working...up to a point... I will start churning out a few more in batches and see what else I can make with them!! I'll pickle and tidy them up after dinner...but - all in all - I think that has been a good day's work!!:dance:

bustagasket
27-10-2009, 05:08 PM
oh well done B what lovely colours!!! I cant wait to have a go at enamelling :D

Di Sandland
27-10-2009, 05:49 PM
Beautiful! And the holly looks like the one I have in my garden - Silver Queen. I have no idea what's happened to the attachment :(

lesley
27-10-2009, 06:49 PM
They look great and the holly is ace!

I have to admit the blackening thing is rather going over my head.

With all these experiments, you could do with your own category, "From B's Workshop". :)

Emerald
27-10-2009, 06:59 PM
oh really good Barbara i like the flowers what are you making them into?x

Solunar Silver Studio
27-10-2009, 07:15 PM
In the past I have made links with pmc decorations which have worked well as components that can be used in bracelets, necklaces and earrings
505
- so these were just Christmas theme ideas but it gave me the opportunity to play with the Argentium wire and pmc conbination as well.

Ironically - it is the holly one that I think has the most going for it so I will have to try modifying it a bit to make it less vulnerable...or alternatively - I could just make it with fine silver wire and not have all this stress!! :-D

I was mortified with the amount of black oxide that was on the Argentium after the first kiln firing...I'm wondering if I need to fire it with the door ajar to allow more oxygen into the kiln so that it might encourage the germanium in the metal to bond with it and create the tarnish protection layer more effectively...

I just wish I knew more/understood more about this crazy metal!! :'(

Di Sandland
27-10-2009, 07:29 PM
Forgive me for being totally fick - when the Argentium comes is it silver or black?

Emerald
27-10-2009, 07:49 PM
In the past I have made links with pmc decorations which have worked well as components that can be used in bracelets, necklaces and earrings
505
- so these were just Christmas theme ideas but it gave me the opportunity to play with the Argentium wire and pmc conbination as well.

Ironically - it is the holly one that I think has the most going for it so I will have to try modifying it a bit to make it less vulnerable...or alternatively - I could just make it with fine silver wire and not have all this stress!! :-D

I was mortified with the amount of black oxide that was on the Argentium after the first kiln firing...I'm wondering if I need to fire it with the door ajar to allow more oxygen into the kiln so that it might encourage the germanium in the metal to bond with it and create the tarnish protection layer more effectively...

I just wish I knew more/understood more about this crazy metal!! :'(


Oh those are really pretty :Y:

I am going to let you carry on with your investiagtions i think before i invest lol x

Solunar Silver Studio
27-10-2009, 08:00 PM
Forgive me for being totally fick - when the Argentium comes is it silver or black?

Oh it's silver all right... It's just what I do to it that makes it turn black!!

It's just so annoying that there is so little written about it. It's all very dry and factual but it doesn't really tell you what it does and what to expect of it...
The title I put on this thread is still very true. I can't see myself ever loving it... but I don't think I will stop playing with it now I've started!!

Di Sandland
27-10-2009, 08:02 PM
The title I put on this thread is still very true. I can't see myself ever loving it... but I don't think I will stop playing with it now I've started!!

You should consider writing up your experiments properly for a mag or something, you know. Now - here is where I am confident and I know you could sell this to a magazine out there.

Solunar Silver Studio
27-10-2009, 08:07 PM
Oh yeah????


Breathe out doubt...breathe in confidence..... ...... ...... ......:o

Solunar Silver Studio
31-10-2009, 10:11 AM
For anyone who might be interested in my latest catalogue of disasters with Argentium/pmc3 combo pieces...I've put it on my blog...since I have added 9 photos...or was it 10??:dontknow: and I didn't think you would appreciate that number posted on here!!

“Argentium Experimentium” « SolunarSilverStudio’s Blog (http://solunarsilverstudio.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/argentium-experimentium/)

Emerald
31-10-2009, 03:12 PM
Oh blimey Bee all that work, i am absolutely amazed the way it just seems to shatter, no help to you at all i am afraid as i have never used it x

Solunar Silver Studio
31-10-2009, 03:34 PM
I know! I am a bit miffed because it does show such promise! ...and I had such plans! I have managed to 'heat harden' it in the past without problems....and that chain I made was fine. It does look to be connected with the pmc somehow. I found this American guy this morning who has written a blog with quite a few beginners tips on, who says he has been working with Argentium for 5 years - so I have sent him an email to see if he has any ideas on what I could be doing wrong. Before all my ideas were shattered I had woven an Argentium bracelet for myself and was going to add pmc end pieces. It looks to me that I might have to make something out of fine silver sheet instead and solder it on....or (good heavens the thought of it!!:-O...the risks!!=:-O...buy a bit of Argentium sheet and try that!!) I'll hang fire on that one though...at least the Argentium won't tarnish while I wait to decide what to do!!!:-D

Emerald
31-10-2009, 03:36 PM
well it was the sheet i was interested in and the wire for my beads as there is no fire scale and with the detail i put on them this would be excellent but i cant afford to experiment xx

Solunar Silver Studio
31-10-2009, 03:56 PM
Oh yeah, of course! It should work wonders for your beads! It does fuse fantastically well and it is supposed to be great for granulation as well.

Emerald
31-10-2009, 03:58 PM
do you think they would mind if i bought a really small piece lol

Solunar Silver Studio
31-10-2009, 04:01 PM
I've just had a quick look at the price of sheet...it isn't much more expensive that sterling. What thickness sterling do you use for your beads?

Emerald
31-10-2009, 04:02 PM
i was using 0.8 but have decided this is to thick so going to go for 0.7



got to take kids out back in a bit x

Solunar Silver Studio
31-10-2009, 04:09 PM
Well - a 6" by 1" piece of Argentium at 0.7 is just over £18... (sorry - I'm pre decimal!! And I'm trying to make mincepies at the same time!!) In case you haven't sussed it...keep an eye on the weight of metal you are buying...even if it means buying a tiny fraction more than you planned...try to get it to the next weight bracket in the little chart. It saves you a surprising amount of money!!;)

mizgeorge
31-10-2009, 04:36 PM
I think I'm going to give in and add some sheet to my order today. I need to see if the sheet will fuse as easily as the wire does - which could be amazing. I wish they'd got the solder in paste form though.

Barbara, it might be worth asking Cynthia Eid about using Argentium with metal clay - she's done so much amazing work with both I'd be surprised if she hasn't combined the two.

Solunar Silver Studio
31-10-2009, 04:53 PM
Yes George - you could be right! When I have a quiet moment I might see if I can find where to get in contact with her. I think there might be a few little parcels of Argentium sheet moving off the shelves this weekend!:D

Solunar Silver Studio
03-11-2009, 04:55 PM
Barbara, it might be worth asking Cynthia Eid about using Argentium with metal clay - she's done so much amazing work with both I'd be surprised if she hasn't combined the two.

Well, George, I emailed Cynthia and have had a nice email back - but she says that she is no expert with pmc and cannot offer any suggestions other than to try firing the clay at the lowest temperature possible... Which I might try if I can stomach the thought of wasting more pmc and Argentium!!

Anyway - I have now sent an email to 'Metal Clay Guru', which seems to have connections with all the great names...so perhaps someone there will have some answers!!

I have never seen this site before and it looks like a great little resource for metal clay users...full of tips, ideas and photos of some great work - and they do a newsletter. This is the link for anyone interested in having a look... Metal Clay Guru - Get Enlightened about Everything Metal Clay - Metal Clay Guru - Home (http://www.metalclayguru.com/)

I'll keep you posted if I get a reply from them about my.....'little problem'....!!:D

caroleallen
03-11-2009, 07:04 PM
I've only just caught up with this. I'm surprised at the AS turning black in the kiln - can't think why that would happen.

You do have to use Sharpie pens - nothing else works.

I have a really good booklet written by Cindy Eid which she gave us when I did her course on Argentium. I'm off to my shows for a fortnight tomorrow but when I get back if anyone wants a photocopy, let me know.

Solunar Silver Studio
03-11-2009, 07:36 PM
She did send me a pdf file of "The New Silvers. Road Testing Argentium Sterling." September 2006. But if you have something else I would love to have a copy. Thanks!:Y:

I had better go invest in a Sharpie pen then!

I have read some information over the week end about annealing Argentium which says you have to water quench as soon as the red goes from the metal and the longer you leave it the harder the metal becomes. I have been scared to move it in case it breaks so I have probably left it too long before quenching. I have ordered some more so I will keep playing with it...I just think I will leave off the pmc for now and hope I get some more info from someone who has used the two together successfully!!

All the best with your shows!![]